I attended ashley valley wilderness and feel totally betrayed. If you are looking to send your adult child to this program you should consider some of the following before you do so because my family and I felt very deceived after my stay there. They claim to be a wilderness program but there isn't much wilderness to it other than the fact that you sleep in a tent and make your food at a fire. They claim to take your child on hikes and do all sorts of outdoor activities and they even show you some videos on their website this is all false(towards the end of your stay the owner Marty takes you out fishing but this only happens once in your entire stay). During my stay at Ashley Valley we would go on an hour long hike once a week every other hour is spent on what they refer to as "blackout" (no one can talk to each other) during blackout you are expected to complete a packet and if you dont finish this packet you fail your week and have to stay another. These packets are the only form of help they offer your child while they are there. They also only let you speak to your kid once every other week for an hour with a therapist there they do this so your child can't truly explain what is going on at the program. The packets offer little to no help in terms of recovery they are simple fill in the blanks and define the term packets that look like they were photocopied from some random textbook. When a packet is not finished by the end of the week you are expected to stay an extra week and do the same packet again and also write a 3 page paper on why you couldn't complete the packet none of this therapeutic in any way. Also when you stay another week you are expected to fork out thousands of more dollars to the program. Which reminds me about the money side of this program the staff and the directors are paid the same amount of money I gained this information from and employee that quit because he felt that the program was a scam this pay is modest compared to what Marty Bingham and Rob Caldwell get they both have very nice trucks and wear fancy cloths and Marty owns a very very large house outside of Vernal which he offers to RENT to you when you come and visit your child (as if 40,000 wasn't enough) it is obvious where your 40,000 dollars go when your at the program they go so far as to not explain the money aspect of this to students in fear that you will write home and shine light on what your family has been conned into. Most all of the staff are not certified counselors and really have no knowledge of addiction, in fact your addiction is not allowed to be talked about while you are there if you do they fail your week and make you stay another. pretty much everything you do at this program can fail your week they do this on purpose because they want to make more money. please i wouldn't make this blog if i didn't want to truly warn people about the conning this program will do to you they make you pay up front because of this. There are many other wilderness programs out there such as outward bound and blackwater those programs are very good and you child will do nothing but hike and spend time outdoors and learn how to live in the woods while also engaging in beneficial dialogue with staff. If you are considering sending your child to this program please email me and ask me your questions don't be sold this by one of the crafty salespeople at this program. I have been to this program and my family and I will be happy to explain to you in further detail why this is a terrible program. This program has much potential and isn't as bad as other programs but for the money you pay to send your child there it is not worth it. TRUST ME there are plenty of other programs. they really exploit the whole doctor phil thing too. I WANT TO GIVE YOU A NON BIASED opinion about this program any former students or parents they put you in contact with are totally biased and say exactly what the program wants them to say they totally lied to my family and me. I went into this program thinking i would be hiking every day and learning about nature and then engage in group therapy where we could openly talk about our issues nothing could be further from the truth and the therapists they put you in contact with are not PHD psychologists which they could easily afford and are very closed minded people who try to tell you to submit to people and let others control you if you ask me this is just teaching your child to be even more co-dependent.
I want to help you and could even point you in the direction of many other better wilderness programs for adults that aren't nearly as expensive.
please feel free to call me at
214 642 5474
email me at pencap.alex0@gmail.com
or find me on Facebook as Alex Roderer (my Facebook is goofy and unprofessional but i'm a college student so dont be discouraged)
I as well attended ashley valley wilderness- and will back this article up by saying this guy knows what he is talkinmg about bc I as well was traumatized by this place. I strongly suggest against anybody going here!
ReplyDeleteShut up archer. You hated it because you weren't down and still ain't down to be sober
DeleteThank you Archer, you may have helped save my daughter from this trauma. I won't be sending her here.
DeleteHmmm.....
ReplyDeleteAnd ohh archer .....
Thanks for the warning. I will definitely be doing my research before settling on any one of the many wilderness programs. I know there are great ones out there and you just need to find what works best for your situation.
ReplyDeleteI'm going to offer a different opinion. Is the program tough? Yes it is. Is it completely different than your typical 28 day residential programs? Yes it is. Only you can decide what's best for you. Many programs offer activities to keep the students busy. When they are busy and engaged, they're not thinking of using. When they are alone with their own thoughts, and no longer have that outside stimulus, that's when many will pick-up. At AVW there is a lot of time spent in isolation. Many students will learn to adapt to the situaution, and learn how to make those hours meaningful without resorting to drugs. The program might not work for everybody, but it certainly made a major difference for our family.
ReplyDeleteYou would identify yourself if you had testimony worth giving.
DeleteThat is nonsense. People do not need to ID themselves to provide good insight.
DeleteI am very interested in sending my son to a summer wilderness programs I am trying to do my best at researching good places to send him where I know he will be taken care of while he is out there but where he will also have a great time! Thank you for sharing your experience with us on here so I know what to look for in the programs!
ReplyDeleteOur son had a very good experience there. The opinion of the writer should be taken with a grain of salt. Many fail rehab, or fail to admit their issues.
DeletePLEASE CALL ME to hear about this program this is a mistake 608 234 7686 cowens1221@yahoo.com i completed this program i have nothing against getting help but this is not it. i will not lie to you.
ReplyDeleteI would have to agree with the statements made by alex. I also attended this program. I was there for a 12 week program. My experience there was anything but therapeutic it was pretty much mind games. I went to this program to mainly to improve the relationship with my mother and family, during the time i was there i spoke to my mother/grandmother 10 times total and half of that time was a therapist named Todd O. that would cut me off and tell my parents that i was lying to them about the type of things that we were doing.
i also experienced a fair amount of prejudice/racism from certain councilors , this is understandable since the majority of the counselors that are employed there are mormon and i guess being biracial isn't something that they agree with. also i would guess that they rarely have minorities attend the program.I also received no protection from other students prejudice remarks i even failed a week as a result of sticking up for myself in this instance.
One of the councilors "told me to not speak like i was in the hood".
the amount of money you/your parents spend on this program is ridiculous, for the "treatment' that you will recieve.
Let me take you through a day-
wake up at 6 or 7 (how would i know they never tell you what time it is up there)
you have 8 minutes to take a sleeping bag a yoga mat and shove it into a very small back pack and make it to the fire circle with your tarp and other equiptment. (if you wake up and try to prepare for the 8 minutes ie. put your clothes on at least you will receive a point deduction which could result in a failed week)
when you make it to the fire circle you do what they call hygiene this consists of rubbing your feet with baby wipes and letting your "one-on-one" know you are doing this. otherwise you will have to do it again which probably isnt a bad idea since this doesnt really clean anythng.
then you will line up for bear bags you will be put on "blackout" if you talk you fail the week or day in some cases both.
then you come back to the fire circle and make your oatmeal and germaide.
you have a time manageable time limit to eat this since it is awful and the staff dont even partake they bring their own normal food from home.
after this someones chore was to put a pot of water on the fire to clean your cups out for every meal. if you don't do this you lose points. if you help someone who forgot you are enabling them.
you clean your cup have to show it to your one on one
Thank you for your comments, I'm looking for a place for my daughter. This sounds like a program that may be beneficial to some but harmful most.
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ReplyDeleteChris Owens
i forgot to mention you must ask permission to do all of this and they can say no if they feel like it(sick)
after this you have your weekly tasks which can consist of making a bag or bowdrill etc.
but wait during your time you need to get this stuff done the staff will want to pack search or a wood run. or randomly designate that day a shower day or you have some random chore like pumping water so you need to go pump 4 or 5 5 gallon water containers for the whole group and make sure there is water for everyone.
by the time you get into your work it is cook time rice and lentils for lunch everyday. dont throw up any of your disqusting food or its a safety. oh wait did you drink a half a gallon of water in that time i hope so because if not its a saftey auto failed day.
then you wash your cups again and have them inspected.
then you try to get week work done school time if you need to. all to be interrupted by spiritual time...better hope its not sunday because you cant do anything during this time accept read a bible or stare into space.
after that its almost cook time for dinner ramen instant mac and cheese basically nothing nutritious. oh and i guess potatoes and onions are only good for 24 hours. ive seen the staff throw perfectly good food into the fire all the while you are wondering how could this be spoiled we got it yesterday?
after that another cup washing and then you will have a STUDENT/PATIENT use their licensed therapy techniques for a "group" this consists of junkies telling you how to have a better relationship with their families or you telling them how to not be a junkie. its pointless. then you have your therapy session with todd or whomever. this isnt productive in the least todd. i acted my way through almost every group and therapy session because i couldnt say how i really felt for fear of failing a week and being stuck on the mountain for more time. on your 42nd day you are supposed to get to see your parents and spend some time with them so they can be wowed by this progress. I personally was robbed of this time why you ask they say its because of the risk of me "running". I heard almost every person say they wouldnt come back from the 42 day they all got to go still. the real reason i didnt get to got was because i was independent of my parents financially ie i could and would have bought a ticket home and just picked up with my life.
Please dont send your child to this program it only creates more tension becasue you the parent are shown this vasad and lied to also you are made to believe that your child is a liar.
I realize this is poorly written If you have any questions feel free to call me at 608 234 7686 or email me cowens1221@yahoo.com i will answer any questions you have. i completed this program and felt like i achieved nothing.
Psshhhh. I went to this program over the summer due to heavy drug use, and i hated it at first. But after a while I really liked a lot of the staff and students there. And YES, most of the staff do have experience with addiction because most of them were in the program themselves or were in a program similar to it in their youth. I agree it is pretty costly, but it saved my life. Leading up to the days of me getting sent to the mountain, i was very reliant on heroin and methamphetamines to the point of which i had very visible and terrifying health decay. I was 90 pounds and 5'5, my vision was always blurred, i could hardly ever breathe, and I would eat maybe a piece of bread a day. The night before i got sent away, i was so messed up on so many different drugsth that i cracked my ribs apart to try and save my heart fom jumping out of my chest, or so i tricked myself into believing
ReplyDeleteAnd I am now back in school in a different city and finally turning my life around. A lot of other programs that claim to be wilderness programs are really boot camps in disguise. And there is nothing therapeutic about boot camp. I understand that some kids do not do well in this program but when your parents talk to the directors about getting enrolle in the program and they get a lot of info about the trouble youth to see if they are a fit for the program. I enjoyed my group very much, we all got along very well. I admit that i strongly disliked a few staff, but I really liked a good majority of them. Plus you really have to give them a chance, they are there to help you. Some staff I absolutely hated at first but they grew on me. And if it does not work, they offer a free six weeks on the mountain if you are still screwing up after you get off the mountain for the first time.
ReplyDeleteThank you for the information! I am looking into some wilderness programs and I want to make sure that I don't choose a fraud or scam! That would literally be the worst!
ReplyDeleteAshley Valley is neither a fraud nor scam
DeleteI am also a former avw student... When i went to the program i was suicidal, manipulative and a compulsive liar. I was not happy to be there at all... However after a few weeks.. I was learning not to lie, i began trusting my family again, the impact letter i wrote and sent to my parents lifted huge amounts of weight off my shoulders and most importantly i started trusting myself again. I agree it was a huge amount of money and that some of the rules arearbitrary. However, before i attended the program i spent weeks in mental hospitals doing regular 'therapy'... But was so depressed that i attempted suicide more than once.... Twice landing in the er with drug overdoses. Since leaving the program almostseven years ago... I attended college.. Got married.. And have not hurt myself or wanted to hurt myself even once. Maybe avw didnt work for you... But it saved my life... And i know quite a few people who were there when i was who can/would say the same. Moral of the story... Ashley valley is not a scam.... Its not perfect but it can and does work for a lot of people.
ReplyDeleteCongratulations Kathy, and thank you for sharing and speaking up
DeleteI graduated/completed the Ashley Valley Wilderness Program (Adult) in 13 weeks. When confronted by my parents about possibly taking this venture, I was not completely convinced.. I wanted to talk to someone who had been to the program.. Instead I was given a phone call by one of their very sly salesmen (who promise to "see you when you get here buddy!) which you never do. I was told, that if I came out there I could go ("snowboarding, rock climbing, horseback riding, hunting, learning survival skills, as well as receiving help with my Issues") What I came to realize was his sick manipulation that these were all thing that could be done IN UTAH.. not necessarily at AVW... What goes on at AVW is well described by Alex, which we were in the same group together. I can personally vouch for all he is saying. And my folks would be more than happy to express how they felt conned and manipulated out of their hard earned money. Yes some staff are great people that I enjoyed being around. Some staff are SICK, scumbags that "get off" on the POWER the have over the campers. Some were WAY worse off then the campers, even talking to certain campers discreetly about how they still get high and drunk, just don't tell their boss! The true SNAKES in this program are the therapists and owners. They use the intimidation and fear that you will never leave the hell hole that it is if you try to tell your parents the TRUTH of what goes on there, they say "your going to fail this week for trying to MANIPULATE your parents" .. Which is exactly what they are doing. Ironic huh? They are experts at this and have been stacking the Benjamin's for years off of their lies, which is exactly what they say your child is doing the entire time... starting to make since? PARENTS PLEASE CHOOSE WISELY THIS WILL SCAR YOUR CHILD FOR LIFE, and CAUSE MAJOR RESENTMENT TOWARDS YOU AND THIS COMPANY. It IS a BUSINESS... remember that. If your child needs help there are So many better, honest places like Outward Bounds etc that will not lie/manipulate you out of your money. ONE LAST MAJOR POINT: They will get you for another $40k-$50k ! How? They attempt (using the serpent like therapists) to convince you that your child needs to attend a "transitional living home" or halfway house. There are plenty of inexpensive ones and even non profit free ones, yet they only work with the MOST EXPENSIVE out there. They say "don't you want to give your kid a real shot at life? After all the hard work they've done?... if not they will most likely go right back to how they were before" They do not just say this to some they recommend aka "pitch" this to 100% of the students that pass through the program. (I know these details because of establishing a good friendship w/ 2 staff members that ended up both quitting due to the guilt of knowing what was going on.. SICK SICK people run this place. I truly believe they should be in prison and or death row as do MANY other parents/ campers that have been to this "hell on earth". When you send your child to the transitional living home, AVW immediately receives one hell of a cash "kickback" from these places... like I stated this is a Business, and they are in the business of making money, not helping families. Please PLEASE do not fall for there snake like lies and cons. God will Judge these evil souls one day and no amount of money in the world will be able to save them! Please spread the word to other parents and choose wisely! This will affect your childs whole future. Good luck and God Bless! - AC (AV1) Feel free to email me with any and all questions, I can even put you in contact with ex-staff that were not fired but quit because their souls were so guilt ridden. TheDankAC@Gmail.com thank you!
ReplyDeleteI used to be a Head Staff at AVW, and all these excuses, exaggerations and fabrications are exactly what typical drug addicts make this fine program out to be.
ReplyDeleteWhat you get out of AVW is exactly what you put into it. In other words, if you spend your time lying to staff, therapists, etc, never really trying to change your self-defeating behaviors, then you will come out of the program unchanged, resentful and bitter.
In my time at MHYR/AVW, I personally witnessed numerous kids and adults completely change their lives by the time they finished the program. And to this day, I still receive many thanks for what I did for these former students.
If you are not willing to change, this program is definitely not for you! But, if you humble yourself, admit to your mistakes, manipulations, lies, etc and really put in the effort, then you will emerge a changed person. I've seen this too many times to even think otherwise.
Sounds to me like Alex had no interest in maximizing his time at AVW, and his experience suffered as a result. The program is about helping students to WANT to change their lives through understanding of choices and consequences, and the ramifications of continued self-destruction. However, if you decide that you don't want to change, then you never will, and your time in the program ends up wasted.
To this unfortunate end, kids at AVW will lie, steal, try to manipulate or deceive, or ultimately, will run. From what I've read, Alex falls into the latter, and seems intent in his efforts to badmouth a program that really HAS helped hundreds of kids and young adults.
I am sorry that Alex had a bad experience. However, the result of his time at AVW was a direct result of HIS CHOICES; and he obviously doesn't like that fact. He sounds as if he is looking for someone to blame for a bad result when in fact, the blame is entirely his.
You see, AVW doesn't seek to force anyone to change--unlike other programs. AVW is focused so that students WANT to change; and that significant difference in philosophy is what truly sets Ashley Valley Wilderness apart.
So like Alex says, do your research. Not all rehab programs are the same; nor are they all for every individual. Always choose which program is best for you/your child.
As for my experience at AVW, no one can ever convince me that the program is a scam, or a waste of time. Numerous positive and ongoing results of many former students simply overwhelm such assertions.
I second what he said. You should kill yourself.
DeleteLet me start by saying I attended AVW in 2008 and have been clean for over 5 years. I was not just some kid that was smoking weed and lying to my parents. I was a cocaine dealer living in an extended stay motel shooting meth, smoking crack and heavily addicted to painkillers. Going into AVW I had been on a week long meth binge and had little to no motor skills. I was struggling just to stay alive. That being said, I was grateful to be there. I was happy I had parents that could send me to a place like this. This place completely changed my life because I embraced it. Going back to my lifestyle was not an option for me. I know your type, you sat around bitching the whole time and wouldn't listen to shit. When you left the mountain, you got back into drugs and blamed it on someone else. Sure, this place has work you have to do, but life is work. All of that is worth it just to be in the Colorado mountains. I can bet that you haven't had to support yourself once in your life by the way you write about this place. It wasn't even your damn money anyway. My parents do not ever regret the money they spent there because it saved my life. A couple years after I got out of AVW I was completely supporting myself financially. I own a house, a truck and have a good paying job. I work 50 hours a week and WISH I could go back to AV just for a week just to hang out!! You do not realize how easy this place is until you are out in the real world paying bills and working 10 hours a day. Nature is what keeps me clean and I will never forget those days in Colorado and Utah. Not a week goes by without me thinking about it. My vacations are to places like this. You sound like a spoiled kid living in his parents house. I feel sorry for you.
ReplyDeleteI have to apologize for this comment I posted here 8 years ago. It was insensitive and uncompassionate. I am now 13 years out of AV and 13 years off of hard drugs. I know now though that this program would not have been needed if it wasn't for the complex PTSD that was given to me being raised by a narcissist and an enabler. Too many parents want to pass off the responsibility to these places and shrug it off as if they just had a bad kid out of nowhere. The reality is that they created the bad kid; that kid is really hurting inside and he/she may not even realize it.
DeleteAV helped me but I went there as a willing adult knowing what I was getting into. It may have affected you differently and I am embarrassed that I belittled that with my original comment.
I personally still have trauma from the first wilderness program I was kidnapped and sent to at the age of 17. I get unreasonable angry and anxious when it is raining outside 20 years later. We were not allowed to eat at that program if we could not start a fire and cook it so if it was raining there was a good chance you wouldn't eat.
I hope you are doing better now.
Ashley Valley Wilderness Rehabilitation, Other Wilderness Programs, and Therapeutic Boarding Schools exist out of a need to correct severe behavior problems found in a statistically insignificant amount of the population. My problem with places like AVWR, which I completed in a timely manner, is that most of the people who end up there would be better served by legitimate mental health treatment. AVWR probably has a leg up on traditional mental health treatment when it comes to Oppositional Defiant Disorder or Anti-Social Personality Disorder; this being said treating ASPD is a crapshoot even at AVWR. I had a drug problem prior to AVWR, but the drug problem stemmed from untreated anxiety and Bipolar Disorder Type 1. So let's say that for the issues I dealt with; Ashley Valley was one of the worst possible choices, very detrimental. I tried to kill myself the night before I was sent to AVWR with pills and alcohol, didn't work out, but ya know while I was at AVWR Todd shrugged it off as bs and called me a liar. Well after completing AVWR I went home and was in the process tying a noose when my mother broke through the door and I got sent to a Psychiatric Facility. After a while in actual mental health treatment and being properly medicated I was able to re-enter society with some success.
ReplyDeleteMy point is that most substance abuse disorders or massive behavioral problems stem from or coexist with mental health problems. AVWR is a behavioral modification program, not the worst of them, but it is far far far away from mental health treatment. I'm not sure if AVWR even acknowledges mental health problems as a real thing, they see everything as behavior to be changed. While that is nice and good and all, it only applies to a small percentage of the people who end up attending these programs. Now if programs like AVWR didn't accept people that didn't belong in their programs they wouldn't have enough people to pay for their business operations. This is the same reason therapeutic boarding schools take children with ADHD, Bipolar Disorders, Depression, Severe Anxiety Disorders, etc.... all things they can't treat properly and aren't interested in treating properly. It makes these conditions worse, but they have to have enough customers to pay their bills; that is how I'm guessing they rationalize what they do behind closed doors; because I'd venture to say that most AVWR staff were good people, to me at least, and wouldn't do what they did unless they believed it was the necessary thing to do.
Aaron and Seth were fantastic staff in my opinion.
Todd, who is a therapist at AVWR, is a liar and a serial manipulator; I imagine he must get something out of being as cruel and inhumane as is.
Continued...
I can understand how people could feel that AVWR was entirely and bad and mentally disturbing experience; at certain points in my program my mental health declined rapidly. It wasn't all bad though, I think I'm much stronger and wiser for completing AVWR.
DeleteLastly, I'm going to point out the obvious, and it's going to upset some of the previous commentaries. It is VERY VERY VERY EASY for AVWR to pretend to be success stories and happy customers on the internet. Also there are many companies who do PR control for places like AV; these companies would also write seemingly genuine reviews posing as happy customers or success stories. Don't be fooled by anyone who doesn't give honest pros and cons about their experience. This is a business that makes a decently large amount of money, they are in the business of protecting their image.
Like I said, there is a small amount of people who need places like AVWR. I'd be very very careful before ruling out hard science based mental health treatment in favor of behavioral modification, based on pseudo-sciences stemming from POW camps, neuro-linguistic programming, and destroy & rebuild philosophies.
For Parents: If you decide to send your child to AVWR or somewhere similar you are taking a risk, maybe things are bad enough that it's a risk worth taking. Remember that most of a child's behavior stems from their experience during the first few years of life. This being said you may be partially culpable for your child's outcome; hard to hear, but I'm not in the business of sugar-coating. AVWR is going to tell you that your child is a liar and the product of lenient parenting; could be true, could also be a convenient way of making your child shoulder all the blame and make you feel good about your decision to send them there. Get honest with yourselves about why your child might want to destroy their life with substances or reckless behavior. Last I checked few addicts are out their having a good time, usually they are in severe emotional pain, often they have PTSD from events unbeknownst to you, especially girls. If what I written were to change one thing, I'd pray that you don't send a child who has PTSD out to wilderness or therapeutic boarding school. I've seen people come back from these places who already had PTSD, let's say behavior modification on top of PTSD is probably irreversible trauma. Not even the best psychiatric hospitals in the country can treat that effectively, most cases like that end in suicide in my extensive experience with high end mental health treatment.
Be careful, most of these places are private enterprises that operate for profit. They'll do and say next to anything to protect their profit margin. It's curious that most rehabs, wildernesses, and therapeutic boarding schools don't publish all their data. Wonder why..... if they actually want to figure out what makes people recover from severe behavioral or mental disorders.....
Thank you Alex and everyone who backed up his testimony. My daughter doesn't know it but she also thanks you all. I am so sorry your troubles were compounded by this awful place. I hope you find/have found healing.
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